September skill wish thread

[Apok Omen]

Originally Posted by Byron

Never got flail-locked? Outside of pve, it's a big problem. Big enough that you should have to think about using flail. And enraging charge has already been nerfed; you need a large investment in strength to get a good use out of it, and strength has limited use otherwise.

.

I have gotten flail locked, then swapped to a furious spear and charged adrenaline that way. I mentioned the nerf because there is no more danger in running a Hammer Warrior anymore. Axe and Sword wars have to cancel Frenzy whenever they know they are in danger.

If you look at it, Flail would still be the better choice over Frenzy for Ham wars. It would just be a bit more balanced.

[Sankt Hallvard]

Originally Posted by IrishX

Hammer warriors used to be balanced by the fact that they had to be careful about using hammer bash. With flail, there is no possible punishment for using bash. Enraging Charge is also a problem, since it allows you to charge those KDs insanely fast. These two skills are probably the only reason why Aura of Stability exists (which is also retarded, by the way), so by nerfing these two skills (just nerfing flail possibly might be enough, if it's done right) AoS could also be hit.

Oh for the love of god. You guys keep making up all these ridiculous skill balance wishes. Hammer wars aren't OP or a "problem" at all. Sure, wars are strong, that does not make them nerf worthy. I seriously hope the anet balancers don't read all these "skill balance wishlist" threads where people keep bringing up nearly every skill in the game asking for a nerf or a buff.

If you haven't noticed already Anet aren't really that good at skill balancing and their resources aren't unlimited. Instead of making up claims how flail could use a tiny nerf here or there, focus on the REAL problems in this game.
That means e/me, r/a and every other button mashing great-result-for-small-effort kind of build.

Another guy in this thread wants another hit to war defensive stances, but only briefly mentions escape or lightning reflexes. A 3 sec stance at a 15r is OP, but 8 secs at 12r is not? Also he feels defensive anthem(elite mind you, and ends on attack) needs a nerf while aegis should come back in its old form. Where's the logic?

No, seriously, stop making up christmas wishlists that Santa can't fulfill. Keep chanting about the REAL problem skills to make it easier to pick up and remedy for Anet.

People kept whining about the old rawrspike, and the turret ranger was sooo evil. Apparently having to play against a balanced setup with good defense and a strong spike was so horrible, but playing against 5 r/a's now is a great leap forward I assume.

[Reverend Dr]

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

Oh for the love of god. You guys keep making up all these ridiculous skill balance wishes. Hammer wars aren't OP or a "problem" at all.

Hammer bars are the poster child for power creep. The old Frenzy hammer bars had to play so much more conservatively and had more energy problems. However this is going to be a problem whenever any IAS other than frenzy/primal is viable for a warrior. This is less of a "here nerf this skill" and more of a general issue of KD chains being more supported, however to ignore it as a 'non-problem' is to ignore a significant part of the power creep.

Though skill update suggestion threads written by unknowns that do not really understand what is causing problems in the game, nor address trends and changes in the trends have never been productive.

[pah01]

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Though skill update suggestion threads written by unknowns that do not really understand what is causing problems in the game, nor address trends and changes in the trends have never been productive.

Since I written the OP I do feel inclined to respond to this.

I am not really bothered by the "unknown" tag since pretty much everyone who I have played the game with has quit except for burton and I am no longer good eneogh to play at a high level.

What I am bothered about is the slur that I do not understand what is causing problems in the game. When someone basically accuses me of being stupid I do expect to see some kind on substantiation. Maybe you have been spending too much time randomly flaming people instead of thinking.

It might benefit everyone more to actually think before you post. While certain players can get away with the "who r u" type flame you are not one of them.

edit: And to be even more frank about this, Remember when Ensign finally got annoyed with Arenanet not listening and posted his "Arenanet don't understand game balance" thread. I don't think being "known" had any influence on any decision made by anet at all.

Joe

[pah01]

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

Another guy in this thread wants another hit to war defensive stances, but only briefly mentions escape or lightning reflexes. A 3 sec stance at a 15r is OP, but 8 secs at 12r is not? Also he feels defensive anthem(elite mind you, and ends on attack) needs a nerf while aegis should come back in its old form. Where's the logic?

I actually think you have got confused yourself about who has said what.

[Azure mist]

Weapon spell removal....

[God_Hand]

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Hammer bars are the poster child for power creep. The old Frenzy hammer bars had to play so much more conservatively and had more energy problems. However this is going to be a problem whenever any IAS other than frenzy/primal is viable for a warrior. This is less of a "here nerf this skill" and more of a general issue of KD chains being more supported, however to ignore it as a 'non-problem' is to ignore a significant part of the power creep.

Hammer bars are amazingly powerful. Along with Axe bars and the new Escape Dagger rangers, this is why everyone and their mom runs some form of anti-melee. Blinding Surge, EDA, Shield Bash, Balanced Stance, Disc Stance, Dark Escape, Return, Empathy, Visions, Insidious; there is so much anti-physical being run out there because without it, you'd be slaughtered.

[Master Ketsu]

Originally Posted by Azure mist

Weapon spell removal....

YES

12 Charac

[God_Hand]

(Watch it, wall of text)

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Though skill update suggestion threads written by unknowns that do not really understand what is causing problems in the game, nor address trends and changes in the trends have never been productive.

Originally Posted by pah01

Since I written the OP I do feel inclined to respond to this.

I am not really bothered by the "unknown" tag since pretty much everyone who I have played the game with has quit except for burton and I am no longer good eneogh to play at a high level.

What I am bothered about is the slur that I do not understand what is causing problems in the game. Wh-

Gonna have to stop you there, mate. Check it:

Skills you want nerfed:

Escape
Exhausting Assault
Mind Blast
Peace And Harmony
Armor of Sanctity
Defensive Anthem
Glyph of Lesser Energy

Skills you want Smiter's Booned:

Mantra of Resolve
Wastrel's Collapse
Aggressive Refrain

Skills you want buffed:

Aegis

You've listed 11 skills. Only Mind Blast and Armor of Sanctity are in the proper category (need nerfs). Other than that, only Wastrel's Collapse and Mantra of Resolve need looking at; they do not need to be Smiter's Booned (and no skill ever should), they just need their drawbacks to actually be drawbacks.

Escape is not the problem, Jagged's activation and Fox Fang's recharge are the problem. Change Jagged to normal attack speed, and Fox Fang's recharge to 4s to keep it in line with Wild Strike (1/2 activation with Fox, or Stance removal with Wild Strike?).

Exhausting Assault is awkward to place on any bar that doesn't repeatedly cycle through the same lead and off-hand attacks quickly. It's only a problem with Jagged's quick activation.

Peace and Harmony has already received a 5 second nerf to recharge, bringing it to 12 from 7. At the time, there were an abundance of spammable hexes that made this almost a necessity. Most hexes have fairly low recharge times. Not to mention that PnH only effects one man. Spread those hexes out!

Defensive Anthem will only be a problem if Aegis gets reverted, and that's not going to happen. Nobody uses this anymore. Why nerf it?

Glyph of Lesser Energy isn't problematic. If anything, the attunements along with Aura of Restoration are a problem. GoLE cuts the energy costs of spells by 10 or more every 30 seconds. On a secondary, it's 20 energy saved every 30 seconds, at best. That is equivalent to 2 pips of energy regen. I fail to see how this is overwhelmingly powerful.

Aggressive Refrain... where do I begin? This skill essentially gives you caster armor. It's extremely inconvenient to reapply if you die; 25e is a LOT. Without this skill, Paragons significantly less damage; so little that it's not even worth bringing them, because their party support is currently severely lacking. Nerf this skill, and you'd never see a Paragon, ever.

Mantra of Resolve - This does need a bit of toning down. Not a Smiter's Boon though. Change it to "Whenever you would have been interrupted, you lose half the energy cost of the spell and are exhausted." (I don't know, just throwing stuff out there)

Wastrel's Collapse - Once again, a Smiter's Boon simply isn't necessary. Change to 15e. Change to "If this skill fails to knockdown, you are knocked down, and this skill takes an additional 40 seconds to recharge." (I don't know, just throwing stuff out there)

Mind Blast - Needs a nerf, but everyone knows that.

Armor of Sanctity - Needs a nerf, but everyone knows that.

Aegis was ridiculous in its old functionality. Even with 15e cost, it was manageable. Pop it on, and physical pressure almost disappeared. The only real counter is Mirror of Disenchantment, and let's face it, people only brought that skill so they could counter this skill. Leave it.

You've called out 10 skills for a nerf, only 4 of which need one. You've called out a Smiter's Boon on Aggressive Refrain, which would kill an entire class overnight if it happened. Nerfing Escape, Glyph, and Exhausting doesn't solve the fundamental problem with their respective builds. You've called out a nerf on Defensive Anthem, an elite that simply isn't run anymore.

And yet you want to revert Aegis to Party-Guardian why?

In my book, you've lost the right to post, much less telling Reverend Dr that he doesn't think when he posts. He's got every right to call you out as an "unknown" (and just as much right to call you out as not having a good view of what is problematic in this game), and if you think he shouldn't have that right, then by extension, you think noone should.

Reverend knows what he's talking about. You don't.

*Ends Rant*
*Raises Flame Shield*



tl;dr - pah01 is wrong and reverend dr is right

[Cantos]

Originally Posted by God_Hand

... they do not need to be Smiter's Booned (and no skill ever should) ...

Hey sorry to pull out a line from your wall, but I'm interested in this. Why exactly do you feel removing skills from the game is always the wrong decision?

[IMMORTAlMITCH]

I'd like to point out that you (God_Hand) are just as much, if not more, of an 'unknown' as the OP and Reverend Dr (though he seems to have a decent idea of what he's talking about).

The problem with R/As is mainly Expertise, since it's very unlikely that at this point in the game Anet will make any big changes to primary attributes, hitting Escape is simply a good solution to hit an obviously overpowered template.

It's not like Escape sees (much) play on non-R/As anyway, no bow ranger would really miss it (and you could actually just make it end on a melee attack to keep it viable on bow rangers) and while I do agree that the attacks activating and recharging so fast is also a problem, once again this leads back to Expertise and block stances as you don't see any A/X running around spamming these buffed attack skills.

GolE isn't really problematic anymore, it mostly was when you could fake indefinitely but a single unspecced skill giving the equivalent of 2 pips of energy regen (it's actually more like 1.5 pip if you factor in the cost) is simply put a very strong skill.

I think the reason the OP added this to his list is because he's asking to bring Aegis back and to not end up with Mo/E with glyphs exclusively (which wasn't the case before Aegis got nerfed anyway but whatever).

Your view on Aegis is simply wrong, sure getting off an Aegis means you'll take considerably less (physical) pressure for a period of time however letting Aegis get up most of the time means you made a mistake in the first place and if you run a build that relies for a big part on physical damage shutting down Aegis or removing it with Mirror should be one of your main priorities.

Aegis was simply a very good and healthy way of keeping physicals in check (including poison spreading rangers) problems with killing arose because of all the other passive defense that was much harder/impossible to shut down at first and then because of healing skills like WoH and Patient Spirit being far too powerful.

Bringing back Aegis allows you to deal with the power creep on healing skills without having 1 minute matches where both teams explode all the time.

[M @ T]

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

lol pah01 says WC is not a problem, but nerf it because it's stupid. what a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing dumbass.

Stop trolling.

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

Whatever you said.

So basically you want everything nerfed and monks buffed except for defensive stances. That's.. one way of viewing things I suppose ..

Originally Posted by Windf0rce

It's ironic how your 'seriously' part has a worse idea than the "25e 120r 10s" (aka Smiter's Boon) one. Everything needs to be toned down, BUT Monks.

I lol'd.

Needs nerf:
R/As
Mind Blast
Distortion
Shove
Armor of Sanctity
Aggressive Refrain
Shadow Form(PvE)

Needs Buff:
Rits
Dervishes(make them the only class that can hit multiple foes with a scyhe or something)

[kedde]

Everything needs to be toned down, including monks.

[Sankt Hallvard]

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Hammer bars are the poster child for power creep. The old Frenzy hammer bars had to play so much more conservatively and had more energy problems. However this is going to be a problem whenever any IAS other than frenzy/primal is viable for a warrior. This is less of a "here nerf this skill" and more of a general issue of KD chains being more supported, however to ignore it as a 'non-problem' is to ignore a significant part of the power creep.

Well now that you link the hammer template to the general "power creep" I can agree with you. In that respect hammer wars are OP just like most other meta bars currently being run. I just find that hammer and wars in general are very well balanced relatively speaking, the bar has a right "feel" to it as someone said earlier. Just like the ranger template "feels" right and its pretty balanced even though everyone knows d-shot is really OP in itself.

God_Hand mentions that the power of the hammer is so strong that people are forced to run good amounts of anti-physical to not lose to it. Well yeah, but I find this a very good mechanic - if not the best mechanic - in guild wars. Melee should deal the highest damage as it is the most vulnerable form of dmg to shut down. They are vulnerable to conditions, hexes, IMS, positioning. They are easy to prot, easy to kite, easy to shut down if you play well. As opposed to e/me or paragons who can switch targets in the blink of an eye and are that much harder to counter. Personally I prefer games where you have to be mindful of your positioning vis-a-vis physicals, trying to prevent unloading of adrenaline with bsurge, using a stance or shield bash at the right moment etc. The other side of this is just as enticing to me, removing the right hexes from your physicals, interrupting what causes them the most problems dealing pressure and so on.

Mitch also touches on this when talking about aegis. With regards to the power creep this is another issue than what I brought up. Let me just repeat by saying that Anet's power to balance and maintain a healthy metagame seems limited. While it might possibly be nice with nerfs to hammer bars, primal rage, patient spirit, woh, corrupt/rip enchantment.. can't we try to make it easier for Anet by focusing (for now) ONLY on stalling the power creep and random buffs?

I haven't pvp'd long enough to make a good judgement on whether the 2005 meta was better than the 2007 meta but I do know that the latest skill update made a long leap towards a broken game(for me). There is(for me) a significant difference between moving from w/e eviscerate to primal rage as opposed to the leap from primal rage to r/a(and mb). If this game moves just one step further towards 1-2-3-4-5-bars and "tabhex" or "hexover" I'm done. I don't mean this as a threat or anything, it's just a realisation that such a direction would strip me of my remaining interest to play the game.


tl;dr: Nerf R/A and MB template on thursday, ignore everything else.

[pah01]

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

I'd like to point out that you (God_Hand) are just as much, if not more, of an 'unknown' as the OP and Reverend Dr (though he seems to have a decent idea of what he's talking about).

The problem with R/As is mainly Expertise, since it's very unlikely that at this point in the game Anet will make any big changes to primary attributes, hitting Escape is simply a good solution to hit an obviously overpowered template.

It's not like Escape sees (much) play on non-R/As anyway, no bow ranger would really miss it (and you could actually just make it end on a melee attack to keep it viable on bow rangers) and while I do agree that the attacks activating and recharging so fast is also a problem, once again this leads back to Expertise and block stances as you don't see any A/X running around spamming these buffed attack skills.

I do not know why people do not understand or forget that escape has been a problem before.

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

GolE isn't really problematic anymore, it mostly was when you could fake indefinitely but a single unspecced skill giving the equivalent of 2 pips of energy regen (it's actually more like 1.5 pip if you factor in the cost) is simply put a very strong skill.

I think the reason the OP added this to his list is because he's asking to bring Aegis back and to not end up with Mo/E with glyphs exclusively (which wasn't the case before Aegis got nerfed anyway but whatever).

When gole got buffed I do not think it was long before aegis went onto monk bars when it was 15 energy. You also got to remember the long wait for aT's where there was almost no meta at all because of all the players quiting and the time it took to get onto the ladder.

I know that I cannot put every reason into my OP but a nerf to glyph for everyone except elementalists is a desire to bring back inspiration to its pre nightfall form, which was a period where *it wasn't a problem*

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Your view on Aegis is simply wrong, sure getting off an Aegis means you'll take considerably less (physical) pressure for a period of time however letting Aegis get up most of the time means you made a mistake in the first place and if you run a build that relies for a big part on physical damage shutting down Aegis or removing it with Mirror should be one of your main priorities.

Aegis was simply a very good and healthy way of keeping physicals in check (including poison spreading rangers) problems with killing arose because of all the other passive defense that was much harder/impossible to shut down at first and then because of healing skills like WoH and Patient Spirit being far too powerful.

Bringing back Aegis allows you to deal with the power creep on healing skills without having 1 minute matches where both teams explode all the time.

Personally as a monk I would use aegis at 15 energy if I could glyph is left in its current state. But I am not a top monk, is it worth the loss of the stances?

I am however willing to give into "earshot" range for aegis, but as I have previously claimed it wasn't a problem pre nf even if every single flagger had run it, I do not think it would have been seen as a problem

Party range skills make for certain kinds of plays, I remember when I used to occasionally guest flagger for a split guild You would try and be in range of both teams when you use heal party on the way to the stand if the map allowed it.

The one reason I do not think that party range would be a problem is that It is obvious to me that a flagger bar with aegis is going to lose some things so it becomes a risk/reward type decision.

Joe

[Bobby2]

Originally Posted by God_Hand

Escape is not the problem, Jagged's activation and Fox Fang's recharge are the problem.

Yeah Jagged is imba, lolol

[Snow Bunny]

Originally Posted by God_Hand

In my book, you've lost the right to post, much less telling Reverend Dr that he doesn't think when he posts. He's got every right to call you out as an "unknown" (and just as much right to call you out as not having a good view of what is problematic in this game), and if you think he shouldn't have that right, then by extension, you think noone should.


tl;dr - pah01 is wrong and reverend dr is right

I know who Joe is!


But I don't know who you are

[Morgoth the dark]

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Yeah Jagged is imba, lolol

@ 1/2/1 followed by 1/2 double interupt it is.

now go lolol back to pve.

ascalon that way ------------>

[IMMORTAlMITCH]

Originally Posted by pah01

Personally as a monk I would use aegis at 15 energy if I could glyph is left in its current state. But I am not a top monk, is it worth the loss of the stances?

It all depends on wether or not you get it off and on the other defense in your build, generally getting an Aegis up means you get the chance to recover some energy but if you get interrupted you will have lost energy and be worse off as you don't have the panic button stances to save your ass, not to mention the 8 extra armor your shield gives you if you spec enough into tactics.

[moriz]

i don't think escape is the cause here for R/A. the general template (escape ranger with dagger attacks) has been around for years. they were largely unnoticed because they couldn't deal enough damage quickly enough. with the buff to those dagger attacks, the template's damage effectively doubled, making them legitimate threats. kill the dagger attacks, and the template fades back into obscurity.